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Displaying all 25 posts by 13 people.
Post #1
Joe Jewell (Oxford University) wroteon September 7, 2009 at 9:15pm
Anyone have comments on this? It certainly surprised me!
http://www.lcms.org/pages/
Time of Grace is a now a "a Recognized Service Organization of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod"... I looked this up and part of what that involves is:
"RSO agrees (a) to foster the mission and ministry of the Synod, (b) to engage in programs in harmony with the Synod and (c) not to act contrary to the doctrine and practices of the Synod as outlined in the LCMS Constitution and Bylaws, the LCMS Board of Directors’ Policies and the LCMS Convention Resolutions that apply."
https://www.lcms.org/graph
Can a WELS pastor really place his ministry under the authority of "LCMS doctrine and practices" and "LCMS Convention Resolutions" and stay a WELS pastor?
http://www.lcms.org/pages/
Time of Grace is a now a "a Recognized Service Organization of The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod"... I looked this up and part of what that involves is:
"RSO agrees (a) to foster the mission and ministry of the Synod, (b) to engage in programs in harmony with the Synod and (c) not to act contrary to the doctrine and practices of the Synod as outlined in the LCMS Constitution and Bylaws, the LCMS Board of Directors’ Policies and the LCMS Convention Resolutions that apply."
https://www.lcms.org/graph
Can a WELS pastor really place his ministry under the authority of "LCMS doctrine and practices" and "LCMS Convention Resolutions" and stay a WELS pastor?
Post #2
Joe Jewell (Oxford University) wroteon September 7, 2009 at 9:24pm
To add: yes, I have emailed Pastor Jeske about this.
Post #3
Michael Schottey (Martin Luther) wroteon September 8, 2009 at 12:17pm
I would not be comfortable with my pastor serving on the board of an LCMS church. I don't see how this is different. It is certainly not an extraneous "non-ministry" like Thrivent.
Post #4
Brent Peterson (Wisconsin Lutheran) wroteon September 8, 2009 at 2:29pm
Hmmm. I would not expect this. All in all, the LCMS and the WELS do mission and outreach quite well, but I don't understand why Time of Grace would need to align itself with the LCMS's Recognized Service Organization.
Post #5
Levi Powers (Wisc La Crosse) wroteon September 8, 2009 at 3:42pm
What can be done about this? Should we do something about this? This action of Time of Grace certainly sends mixed messages and may lead to some confusion.
Post #6
Benjamin Tomczak (Dallas / Fort Worth, TX) wroteon September 9, 2009 at 1:02pm
Joe, et al ~
Thanks for posting this.
My thoughts (when I found out about it last week) were two-fold:
1) What exactly is going on here? How strict is this agreement (apparently the LC-MS has already waived the absolute requirement of having LC-MS members on the board, according to some other blogs I perused)? What does being an RSO mean?
2) Then, when I found out what an RSO is, I asked, "Am I being overly sensitive, or is this a violation of the 'Keep away from them' (Romans 16) and 'Work together for the truth' (2 John) principles?" It's hard for me to see how, at the very least, this isn't confusing.
It's hard to see how a WELS ministry wouldn't be "acting contrary to" the doctrines and practices of the LC-MS, unless that is read to meant, "Don't propagandize about the differences," or "Don't talk about the actual differences, just dwell on those things about which we agree." Either of which are still pretty unacceptable. Both of which seem to be "acting contrary to" the doctrines and practices of the WELS.
After digging into it a little bit (isn't the RSO Manual a fun read?) I passed it up the line, that is, contacted my District President (my District's overseer of doctrine and practice) who contacted that District's President (Pastor Jeske's overseer of doctrine and practice) and the Synod President (our Synod's overseer of doctrine and practice).
Without getting into details, the people who need to know about these things in order to find out what's going on and to work on this situation know what they need to know and are working on them.
Thanks for posting this.
My thoughts (when I found out about it last week) were two-fold:
1) What exactly is going on here? How strict is this agreement (apparently the LC-MS has already waived the absolute requirement of having LC-MS members on the board, according to some other blogs I perused)? What does being an RSO mean?
2) Then, when I found out what an RSO is, I asked, "Am I being overly sensitive, or is this a violation of the 'Keep away from them' (Romans 16) and 'Work together for the truth' (2 John) principles?" It's hard for me to see how, at the very least, this isn't confusing.
It's hard to see how a WELS ministry wouldn't be "acting contrary to" the doctrines and practices of the LC-MS, unless that is read to meant, "Don't propagandize about the differences," or "Don't talk about the actual differences, just dwell on those things about which we agree." Either of which are still pretty unacceptable. Both of which seem to be "acting contrary to" the doctrines and practices of the WELS.
After digging into it a little bit (isn't the RSO Manual a fun read?) I passed it up the line, that is, contacted my District President (my District's overseer of doctrine and practice) who contacted that District's President (Pastor Jeske's overseer of doctrine and practice) and the Synod President (our Synod's overseer of doctrine and practice).
Without getting into details, the people who need to know about these things in order to find out what's going on and to work on this situation know what they need to know and are working on them.
Post #7
Silas Pieper (Milwaukee, WI) wroteon September 9, 2009 at 3:39pm
hmm... seems we have some Icabod crazies...
Post #8
Michael Schottey (Martin Luther) wroteon September 9, 2009 at 4:16pm
Yep, me (the MLC grad) and Rev Tomczak are "Ichabod Crazies" and not simply worried about a WELS pastor becoming closely affiliated with (and taking an oath to be bound in practice to) the LCMS.
Ad Hominem much?
Ad Hominem much?
Post #10
Michael Schottey (Martin Luther) wroteon September 10, 2009 at 7:24am
Phil...you so crazy!
Post #11
Kurt Kolander (Wisconsin Lutheran) wroteon September 11, 2009 at 12:29pm
Its been awhile since my last church history class, so can someone quickly summarize the doctrinal differences between LCMS and the WELS?
Post #12
Joe Jewell (Oxford University) wroteon September 11, 2009 at 3:03pm
1) Doctrine of church and ministry
LCMS = Pastor is the only true and complete form of a mediate divine call, and the local congregation is the basic and true form of the church. Synod is not church.
WELS = Divine call can take many forms: pastors, teachers, professors, administrators, others. Synod is church.
2) Church fellowship
LCMS = Altar (communion) and pulpit (preaching) fellowship require a common confession, worship and prayer do not.
WELS = All forms of joint worship and prayer constitute church fellowship and require a common confession.
3) Male/female roles
LCMS = Only the pastoral office is exclusively reserved for men. Congregational officers and presidents (and even Elders in some LCMS congregations, although that is controversial) can be women.
WELS = Offices that involve leadership over mixed groups are to be filled by men. However, a female could theoretically commune a group of all females.
ELS = Same as WELS, except some controversy on that last point about women communing women.
I might add that historically the WELS has shown a greater tendency to insist upon the inerrancy of Scripture, but that is related to all three of the above.
A good book on this topic is "A Tale of Two Synods" by your very own Prof. Braun of WLC.
LCMS = Pastor is the only true and complete form of a mediate divine call, and the local congregation is the basic and true form of the church. Synod is not church.
WELS = Divine call can take many forms: pastors, teachers, professors, administrators, others. Synod is church.
2) Church fellowship
LCMS = Altar (communion) and pulpit (preaching) fellowship require a common confession, worship and prayer do not.
WELS = All forms of joint worship and prayer constitute church fellowship and require a common confession.
3) Male/female roles
LCMS = Only the pastoral office is exclusively reserved for men. Congregational officers and presidents (and even Elders in some LCMS congregations, although that is controversial) can be women.
WELS = Offices that involve leadership over mixed groups are to be filled by men. However, a female could theoretically commune a group of all females.
ELS = Same as WELS, except some controversy on that last point about women communing women.
I might add that historically the WELS has shown a greater tendency to insist upon the inerrancy of Scripture, but that is related to all three of the above.
A good book on this topic is "A Tale of Two Synods" by your very own Prof. Braun of WLC.
Post #13
Kurt Kolander (Wisconsin Lutheran) wroteon September 12, 2009 at 8:45am
Thanks for the refresher. I believe I studied Dr. Braun's work when at WLC, but the details had escaped my memory.
I know that this comment will get a lot of flak, but the above listed differences seem so practice based and minimally doctrine. To explain
(because I am sure that I am probably losely using those terms), these appear to be discrepancies concerning the practice and outward image of the physical church on earth. They do not, in my opinion, have a direct effect on the actual message of the Law and Gospel.
This is just my observation regarding the two synods division based on Joe's response to my post. If there is more to these divisions, then my observations are invalid.
I know that this comment will get a lot of flak, but the above listed differences seem so practice based and minimally doctrine. To explain
(because I am sure that I am probably losely using those terms), these appear to be discrepancies concerning the practice and outward image of the physical church on earth. They do not, in my opinion, have a direct effect on the actual message of the Law and Gospel.
This is just my observation regarding the two synods division based on Joe's response to my post. If there is more to these divisions, then my observations are invalid.
Post #14
Paul T. McCain (Concordia Publishing House) wroteon September 13, 2009 at 5:01pm
I've deleted my post. It is not my place on this Facebook Group to discuss doctrine with WELS folks. That is for another time, and place.
Post #15
Joe Jewell (Oxford University) wroteon September 13, 2009 at 5:03pm
I think your judgment is correct on that, and I have deleted my response to your post as well.
To anyone else reading this board, I've revised my statement on LCMS/inerrancy from that above to the narrower:
"The LCMS has shown a greater tendency to tolerate without discipline within their ranks those who do *not* teach the inerrancy of Scripture".
To anyone else reading this board, I've revised my statement on LCMS/inerrancy from that above to the narrower:
"The LCMS has shown a greater tendency to tolerate without discipline within their ranks those who do *not* teach the inerrancy of Scripture".
Post #16
Luke Gieschen (Martin Luther) wroteon September 13, 2009 at 5:09pm
Could someone please back up both the WELS and LCMS stances with scripture? I understand the points of the differences, I just can't connect their basis scripturally as I am not as well versed as I could be.
Post #17
Benjamin Tomczak (Dallas / Fort Worth, TX) wroteon September 15, 2009 at 12:55pm
Two places you can go to read the WELS confession on these doctrines and teachings of Scripture:
1) "This We Believe" -- http://www.wels.net/cgi-bi
2) "Doctrinal Statements of the WELS" -- http://www.wels.net/cgi-bi
Both can be downloaded and read there. You'll find copious Scriptural references to track down and study on all three topics -- Church and Ministry, Fellowship, and the Roles of Men and Women.
1) "This We Believe" -- http://www.wels.net/cgi-bi
2) "Doctrinal Statements of the WELS" -- http://www.wels.net/cgi-bi
Both can be downloaded and read there. You'll find copious Scriptural references to track down and study on all three topics -- Church and Ministry, Fellowship, and the Roles of Men and Women.
Post #19
Jay Ramos (Yale) wroteon September 24, 2009 at 8:47pm
Pastor Tomczak (or others),
Is there some kind of timeframe in which we can expect a statement or other action from those who are working on this?
I would hope that the statement addresses the reason for becoming an RSO and why this is or is not acceptable.
Is there some kind of timeframe in which we can expect a statement or other action from those who are working on this?
I would hope that the statement addresses the reason for becoming an RSO and why this is or is not acceptable.
Post #20
Benjamin Tomczak (Dallas / Fort Worth, TX) wroteon September 25, 2009 at 7:24am
Jay ~
Honestly, I don't know how long things will take to be taken care of and dealt with. The Bible doesn't give us a "timeframe" just an action frame (Matthew 18:15ff). It could be days, it could be weeks, it could be months, depending on what and who is involved.
Honestly, I don't know how long things will take to be taken care of and dealt with. The Bible doesn't give us a "timeframe" just an action frame (Matthew 18:15ff). It could be days, it could be weeks, it could be months, depending on what and who is involved.
Post #21
Jeffrey Sonntag (Martin Luther) wroteon October 7, 2009 at 10:46pm
Has anyone contacted Time of Grace and asked them about this personally. Do they know what this website says about them? Just wondering.
Post #22
Joe Jewell (Oxford University) wroteon October 11, 2009 at 6:11pm
I emailed Mark Jeske right before I started this thread a month ago. He says [I'm paraphrasing; I didn't ask his permission to quote him] essentially that RSO status doesn't really mean what the LCMS RSO website says it does, and that he feels it simply means that LCMS has vetted his program and considers it OK for LCMS people to watch. Pastor Jeske says that becoming an LCMS RSO doesn't actually give LCMS any authority over Time of Grace.
That seems like (putting the Lutheran "best construction" on this) an exceptionally naive take on an agreement "not to act contrary to the doctrine and practices of the Synod as outlined in the LCMS Constitution and Bylaws, the LCMS Board of Directors’ Policies and the LCMS Convention Resolutions". I have never in the past known Mark Jeske to be that naive.
They are aware of what the LCMS website says about Time of Grace's official affiliation (I sent him the same link I posted to start this thread, and I doubt it was a surprise in any event) and OK with it.
For what it's worth, the LCMS pastor in my hometown (who is equally surprised that a WELS entity would affiliate with LCMS in this way) tells me that it is quite a process to get RSO status--it involves lots of paperwork and approval at the district/synodical level. He and other area LCMS congregations have been going through the process to get RSO status for some joint work that they do, and it is apparently not at all trivial.
That seems like (putting the Lutheran "best construction" on this) an exceptionally naive take on an agreement "not to act contrary to the doctrine and practices of the Synod as outlined in the LCMS Constitution and Bylaws, the LCMS Board of Directors’ Policies and the LCMS Convention Resolutions". I have never in the past known Mark Jeske to be that naive.
They are aware of what the LCMS website says about Time of Grace's official affiliation (I sent him the same link I posted to start this thread, and I doubt it was a surprise in any event) and OK with it.
For what it's worth, the LCMS pastor in my hometown (who is equally surprised that a WELS entity would affiliate with LCMS in this way) tells me that it is quite a process to get RSO status--it involves lots of paperwork and approval at the district/synodical level. He and other area LCMS congregations have been going through the process to get RSO status for some joint work that they do, and it is apparently not at all trivial.
Post #23
Samuel Jeske (Martin Luther) wrote6 hours ago
I understand your concern, joe. But I agree with Kolander. This is really minor. Can we, in this financial time of crisis, afford to argue amongnst each other about the differences in the invisible church? Amongst the Lutheran Church? So you slap a LCMS label on a WELS box of cereal. Does that mean the "WELS" truth will taste different? Does that suddenly mean he's preaching heresy? Does that mean that the Holy Spirit no longer works through him?
Naive? That seems pretty straight forward. Is not their truth our truth? Yeah there are the differences in clergy, but did not Jesus die for them too? Are they suddenly not allowed to watch Time of Grace because of some denominational acronym? No.
Why are we arguing about how the truth of God's love enters the homes of people? God is reaching people through this ministry. Has anyone here attended St. Marcus? Has anyone here ever watched Time of Grace? If so, do you hear heresy in what he says? No. You don't. The differences you've listed seem trivial to argue about. Are we not commanded to go into ALL the world and preach the good news, the truth, to ALLl creation? So if the truth comes in a LCMS box are you saying it no longer is truth? You mentioned earlier that it scares you. Why? ELS works hand in hand with the WELS. Why can't LCMS? Aren't we all called for the same work?
Naive? That seems pretty straight forward. Is not their truth our truth? Yeah there are the differences in clergy, but did not Jesus die for them too? Are they suddenly not allowed to watch Time of Grace because of some denominational acronym? No.
Why are we arguing about how the truth of God's love enters the homes of people? God is reaching people through this ministry. Has anyone here attended St. Marcus? Has anyone here ever watched Time of Grace? If so, do you hear heresy in what he says? No. You don't. The differences you've listed seem trivial to argue about. Are we not commanded to go into ALL the world and preach the good news, the truth, to ALLl creation? So if the truth comes in a LCMS box are you saying it no longer is truth? You mentioned earlier that it scares you. Why? ELS works hand in hand with the WELS. Why can't LCMS? Aren't we all called for the same work?
Post #24
Jeffrey Sonntag (Martin Luther) wroteabout an hour ago
The reason that LCMS and Wisconsin Synod don't work together is because they are not in fellowship because they don't agree on all the teachings of the Bible. The WELS and ELS ARE in fellowship and therefore they do joint tasks.
As for the differences, how about we come at this from a logical reasoning. The WELS and LC-MS don't teach the same things. They are similar but not the same. If we just get rid of the doctrine of fellowship and say "If we are pretty close in our teachings and beliefs that's good enough, where do you stop?'' Do you stop with the ELCA or do you stop with Presbyterians or do you stop with Catholics or do you stop with anyone who says they believe in Jesus or ... etc.
There is a reason that we don't work together with other Synod's with whom we are not in fellowship with, and that is because we are not the same. St. Paul specifically says in Romans 16:17 "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."
As for the differences, how about we come at this from a logical reasoning. The WELS and LC-MS don't teach the same things. They are similar but not the same. If we just get rid of the doctrine of fellowship and say "If we are pretty close in our teachings and beliefs that's good enough, where do you stop?'' Do you stop with the ELCA or do you stop with Presbyterians or do you stop with Catholics or do you stop with anyone who says they believe in Jesus or ... etc.
There is a reason that we don't work together with other Synod's with whom we are not in fellowship with, and that is because we are not the same. St. Paul specifically says in Romans 16:17 "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."
Post #25
Samuel Jeske (Martin Luther) wrote26 minutes ago
I understand that. My point is if LCMS sees Time of Grace and says, "Hey, here's a television show that we can watch and would like to use and doesnt clash with our doctrine," does this suddenly mean that the pastor preaching for Time of Grace is LCMS? LCMS is a wide division of Lutherans. Some are extremely liberal like their friends in ELCA, others are more conservative like us WELS. Every synod has its issues. Believe it or not even the WELS has its own problems.
Paul was right in what he said. And i agree. But do we stay away from all Christians who do not fall under the WELS umbrella? Do we immediatley assume that we are always right and judge others because we are WELS? Do they not read the same Bible passage and apply that towards us? Most likely. If anything this thread of whether or not Mark Jeske is LCMS is an obstacle and a cause of division. Time of Grace has more viewers on a Sunday morning than the WELS does members on a Sunday morning. What does that say? Do you think just Lutherans watch this show?
Lets look at the facts. Does Time of Grace teach anything that goes against WELS doctrine? No. So why do we raise our eyebrows if LCMS WANTS to use a WELS based television show? Why are we getting mad about this? If anything this is something to rejoice about. LCMS using a WELS doctrinated show? So why do we bicker? Why do we waste time fighting amongst ourselves? Right now the WELS has plenty of bigger issues that could use a facebook thread on before we start questioning the intentions of a 20 year WELS pastor veteran.
Where we draw the line is where denominations no longer let scripture interpret itself. Does not Time of Grace do that?
Time of Grace was approached by LCMS asking if their material could be used. They have no control over the doctrine of Time of Grace which has and always will be WELS. It is simply material that they intend to use. Period. Time of Grace is WELS affiliated. LCMS has ZERO control over them doctrinally.
Let us remember that we are first servants of Christ and remember our jobs as Christians are to spread the truth. Time of Grace IS spreading the truth. Does anyone else feel this thread is the least of our concerns?
Paul was right in what he said. And i agree. But do we stay away from all Christians who do not fall under the WELS umbrella? Do we immediatley assume that we are always right and judge others because we are WELS? Do they not read the same Bible passage and apply that towards us? Most likely. If anything this thread of whether or not Mark Jeske is LCMS is an obstacle and a cause of division. Time of Grace has more viewers on a Sunday morning than the WELS does members on a Sunday morning. What does that say? Do you think just Lutherans watch this show?
Lets look at the facts. Does Time of Grace teach anything that goes against WELS doctrine? No. So why do we raise our eyebrows if LCMS WANTS to use a WELS based television show? Why are we getting mad about this? If anything this is something to rejoice about. LCMS using a WELS doctrinated show? So why do we bicker? Why do we waste time fighting amongst ourselves? Right now the WELS has plenty of bigger issues that could use a facebook thread on before we start questioning the intentions of a 20 year WELS pastor veteran.
Where we draw the line is where denominations no longer let scripture interpret itself. Does not Time of Grace do that?
Time of Grace was approached by LCMS asking if their material could be used. They have no control over the doctrine of Time of Grace which has and always will be WELS. It is simply material that they intend to use. Period. Time of Grace is WELS affiliated. LCMS has ZERO control over them doctrinally.
Let us remember that we are first servants of Christ and remember our jobs as Christians are to spread the truth. Time of Grace IS spreading the truth. Does anyone else feel this thread is the least of our concerns?
