DK suggested a discussion on the Maier paper, I will be interested in participating in that.
Here is the link: http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MaierJustification.pdf
LPC
The Glory Has Departed
Tuesday, November 10, 2009
Let's Discuss the Walter Maier II Paper
DK suggested a discussion on the Maier paper, I will be interested in participating in that.
Here is the link: http://www.wlsessays.net/files/MaierJustification.pdf
LPC
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6 comments:
I find this essay to be completely sound and faithful to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. I'm interested to see if any Christians find an issue with what Walter Maier confessed (this leaves out you UOJists).
Another essay that would lend to a good discussion would be H.A. Preus' The Justification Of The World. http://www.christforus.org/Papers/Content/HermanAmbergPreusonJustificationofWorld.htm In it he attacks Professor A. Weenaas for defending Justification by faith alone. As with Maier's essay I found myself in full agreement with Prof. Weenaas.
While the vast falling away of those who call themselves Lutheran is utterly painful to watch it is the sign of Christ's imminent return to bring judgement upon those who deny His Name and eternal peace to those who cling to It alone through the Holy Spirit's faith.
Pr. Greg,
I believe Maier's paper is a well thought out critic of Pieper. He accepts Pieper's exposition where Pieper got justification right but rejects him where Pieper wanders off into UOJ.
It clearly shows that Maier does not kiss the ground Pieper walks on unlike some people we know ;-)
I think Maier got castigated because the truth was just too hard to take ( that the LC-MS father could be wrong).
LPC
Of course, Our Saviour LCMS in Lansing is thoroughly church growth, complete with praise band stage built in to their new sanctuary. (New because they abandoned the black neighborhood where they were to move to a lily white area.) It's about numbers after all -- visible numbers in the visible church -- not faithful ministry to SOULS where the gospel could really make a difference. Maier schmaier. More hereditary nonsense.
Some argue against the Lutheran position on objective justification by starting with the premise that justification is either objective or subjective, finding proof that Scripture teaches a subjective justification, and concluding that objective justification is not taught in Scripture. One could as cogently start with the premise that reconciliation between God in Christ and the world is either objective or subjective, find proof that Scripture teaches a subjective reconciliation, and conclude that objective reconciliation is not taught in Scripture.
That the premise is false is clear from 2 Cor. 5:19-20, where Paul immediately follows his announcement that the world has already been [objectively] reconciled with God with an exhortation to be [subjectively] reconciled with God.
DRB, you say that OJ is a Lutheran position. Your premise is wrong, OJ is not a Lutheran doctrine. The Confessions do not declare the world forgiven of all sin, justified or righteous in the blood of Christ before the Means of Grace work contrition and faith. In fact the BOC states, "6] Let any one of the adversaries come forth and tell us when remission of sins takes place. O good God, what darkness there is! They doubt whether it is in attrition or in contrition that remission of sins occurs. And if it occurs on account of contrition, what need is there of absolution, what does the power of the keys effect, if sins have been already remitted?…" http://www.bookofconcord.org/defense_10_repentance.php
BOC confirms that no one is forgiven before faith. Do you disagree with the BOC quote above?
You're promoting a man made doctrine and building a false argument since your UOJ theologians have already admitted that there is only one Justification not two as you describe. But your OR and SR do show the absurdity of the whole Objective and Subjective deception.
Mr. Meyer, yes, I certainly believe all that the BOC says about subjective forgiveness, which is only received by faith. As to whether UOJ is Lutheran, consider that Luther himself taught that there is an objective forgiveness that takes place without faith:
Objective and subjective forgiveness
Do you agree with Luther on that point?
Some who understand UOJ concede that it is not a false gospel but rather that it uses potentially misleading terminology. I would not be surprised to find that there are better ways to express the good news that God in Christ reconciled the world to himself, not imputing their sins against them, and then urging them to receive that reconciliation by faith.
In light of your argument on two justifications, I would first ask you whether 2 Cor. 5:19-20 teaches one reconciliation or two reconciliations. Does reconciliation with God take place before faith, by faith, or both? Second, I would ask you whether the use of the terms "church militant" and "church triumphant" necessarily implies that there are two churches.
I look forward to reading your reply.
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