I used to hear the Bethany Seminary students recite their favorite quotation from Conan the Barbarian, "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear crying of the children and the lamentation of their vimin." Only Arnold could recite a line like that without laughing.
In the interest of honoring the Eighth Commandment, I have to admit that no anonymous poster on this blog is a Church Growther (Shrinker) or a Church and Changer (Chicanery). They are not Church Growth, just anti-anti-Church Growth.
Joe Krohn moved from one generic Babtist WELS emerging church (CrossWalk in Phoenix) to another one in Round Rock (Rock N Roll with Doebler), and he often posted on the Church and Change list with his complete name, fairly drooling over their confabs. But Joe Krohn is not one of them. I know because he claimed he was not.
Nor is Kudu Don Patterson a Church and Changer. He did present there and he actually traveled a long distance to be at their 2009 gathering. But he is not a Chicanery, because he said he was not. He probably went to Exponential for the same reason, just to look around and scowl at all the WELS workers who were there practicing unionism.
Mrs. Ichabod just reminded me - Patterson took a bunch of WELS workers to Exponential. Never mind. He is a District VP, so everything he does is orthodox.
Joe Krohn shut down and erased his second major effort at blogging. I checked in once a week to see if I was the only reader. I was.
Someone told me Krohn and Patterson were buddies.
Krohn's blogging pal, Tim Felt-Needs, just wrote that it was not worth his precious time to write on Ichabod. Of course, I do not remember him using his real name very often. Perhaps he meant writing some more superficial posts on his blog, where he defends yet another WELS emerging church - Victory of the Movie Screen and Treats.
That made me wonder about the fake blog. Once again, all those files are erased. Joe Krohn erased his blog twice. The fake Ichabod erased his blog two times. Just sayin'.
The fake blog was hotter than Georgia asphalt for UOJ and Church Growth. I have not seen so much passion since Wally Oelhafen, Floyd Luther Stolzenburg, and Paul Kuske joined forces.
I let the nasty anonymous comments through all the time because I wanted the WELS members and pastors to see what the Church Growth people are like. They have been doing the same thing to the duly elected elected SP of WELS. The members and pastors are not aware of what goes on. I do not have a direct line, of course. I have just observed their published behavior, with the Kelm calls (twice) and the Stetzer and Sweet invitations.
Too bad no one will ever see what the Shrinkers did with all the loot from Marvin Schwan. But at least everyone can see what they have done to Lutheran doctrine, Lutheran worship, and Lutheran practice. Their showcase exhibits are The CORE, Victory of the Movie Theater, Latte
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Brett Meyer has left a new comment on your post "The Crying of the Children and the Lamentation of ...":
Here's one of Joe Krohn's statements on the Church and Change WELS listserve discussing satanist Leonard Sweet's invitation to teach them:
"I have been following this Dr. Sweet thread and it's morphs with great interest.
This is a great example of the verse "iron sharpens iron" a pastor friend of mine uses quite often. Just to interject, and this may have been stated already; yes, we live in the end times, but we are not growing and there are churches that have experienced phenomenal growth in the last 10 to 15 years. We have to do something. I don't know if I'll be at the conference, but I am somewhat put off by the fact that it is assumed by some on this list that some of us cannot discern what is good and what is bad. The casual/baby Christian/low end of the spectrum faith worshipper is not going to be at the Conference. These are people with strong faiths who show genuine concern about the future of our Synod and theology. Reaction on this list is proof of that. We are pretty much WELS Christians who are very involved in our churches. Thank the Lord that Luther was able to discern. Luther is a great example to look at in times like these. Take what is good and throw out the bad. But you have to remain relevant in today’s society and if we need to bring in someone who can help us, I say go for it! When I see churches like Lakewood in Houston buy the old Omni because of their growth, or Saddleback in California, or Chandler Christian Church right in my back yard buying up chunks of real estate to expand, I think they must be doing something right!! I would never approve of their theologies, but hey, why can’t we take what they are doing right and graft it on our theology? We’re pretty proud of our theology aren’t we? At least that’s the impression I get from this list. We have to get proactive. I fear our Synod has waited too long. At times I grieve for WELS. We just need to get as evangelical as the Evangelicals are and be like it says in our name: Wisconsin EVANGELICAL Lutheran Synod.
God Bless you all!
Joe Krohn"
WELS: S.S. Titanic
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rlschultz has left a new comment on your post "The Crying of the Children and the Lamentation of ...":
Joe Krohn is wrong in more ways than one. Iron does not sharpen iron. You need a harder metal to sharpen the softer metal. Tool steel can sharpen iron. Since we are on this subject, "the Word of God is quicker and more powerful than any two-edged sword".
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GJ - I wonder if the iron reference began with the Iron Sharpens Iron Babtecostal Conferences. The speakers are the usual bunch, not quite the A List icons of Exponential. Chuck Colson is the first name I really recognized, but I don't go to Schwaermer conferences for a seven-day high. I have grandchildren for that, and it lasts 24/7.
I am not making any charges, but these ecumenical conferences attract WELS and Missouri Shrinkers the way Velcro attracts lint.
9 comments:
Here's one of Joe Krohn's statements on the Church and Change WELS listserve discussing satanist Leonard Sweet's invitation to teach them:
"I have been following this Dr. Sweet thread and it's morphs with great interest.
This is a great example of the verse "iron sharpens iron" a pastor friend of mine uses quite often. Just to interject, and this may have been stated already; yes, we live in the end times, but we are not growing and there are churches that have experienced phenomenal growth in the last 10 to 15 years. We have to do something. I don't know if I'll be at the conference, but I am somewhat put off by the fact that it is assumed by some on this list that some of us cannot discern what is good and what is bad. The casual/baby Christian/low end of the spectrum faith worshipper is not going to be at the Conference. These are people with strong faiths who show genuine concern about the future of our Synod and theology. Reaction on this list is proof of that. We are pretty much WELS Christians who are very involved in our churches. Thank the Lord that Luther was able to discern. Luther is a great example to look at in times like these. Take what is good and throw out the bad. But you have to remain relevant in today’s society and if we need to bring in someone who can help us, I say go for it! When I see churches like Lakewood in Houston buy the old Omni because of their growth, or Saddleback in California, or Chandler Christian Church right in my back yard buying up chunks of real estate to expand, I think they must be doing something right!! I would never approve of their theologies, but hey, why can’t we take what they are doing right and graft it on our theology? We’re pretty proud of our theology aren’t we? At least that’s the impression I get from this list. We have to get proactive. I fear our Synod has waited too long. At times I grieve for WELS. We just need to get as evangelical as the Evangelicals are and be like it says in our name: Wisconsin EVANGELICAL Lutheran Synod.
God Bless you all!
Joe Krohn"
WELS: S.S. Titanic
Joe Krohn is wrong in more ways than one. Iron does not sharpen iron. You need a harder metal to sharpen the softer metal. Tool steel can sharpen iron. Since we are on this subject, "the Word of God is quicker and more powerful than any two-edged sword".
Hello to Brett!(I will send you an email later today)
Chruch Growth movement! Lakewood! Sadle-Back! First and foremost these are not true churches. Why are we jealous of the devil's tent? DO NOT be tempted by the devil. Osteen is almost a life-coach. Real pastors preside over worship service, administer the means of grace, teach bible classes, oversee committee meetings, visit sick/shut-in and contact potential new members. As the population expands ina new area, then you look at starting a daughter/mission church. WELS congregations need to work together. Look at Appleton, that's divisiveness! The fault of that division lies on the C&C-CG-Willow Creek followers. Older confessionals in WELS warned about this in the past decades.(read Armin W. Schuetze peoples Bible Series) We will not sink if we trust in the Lord and His Word. I am sad for the UOJ crowd, read some of the history on Tholuck and Universalism....it's scary. Pastor Jackson has only hit the surface on this. Tholuck was hevily influenced by a German Professor named Birk***(Sorry I thought I had a note with the correct spelling) This guy was more a scientist. What history I have read days he was not a theologeon.
Pastor Jackson's remarks are kinder than these historical readings. Also refer to http://www.wlsessays.net/files/SchombergMinistry.pdf and it was written in 1984.(talks bout LCA, Christian News, and the old This WE Believe)
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Here is the full and correct name of the Professor that influenced Tholuck: E. A. Thomas Rawson Birks
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
Ever since Joe Krohn’s embouchure turned into limp liver, he no longer toots his horn.
Nope! I missed the target again.(My bad) Rawson Birks was a member of the Anglican Church in England.(don't know how German got in there, to much litature to read)
Readers beware, some portray Birks in a positive spotlight. I'll let smarter folks like Pastor Jackson sort it out. Long-story-short, does the Messianic Church teach a kind of universal justification?
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
This is from the same C&C listserve discussion on the invitation for satanist Leonard Sweet. Reminds me of Luke 6:45, "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."
"Hello All!
It was great to be in Minneapolis last week! I found the experience uplifting and inspiring. May God continue to bless us, alot!!! In regards to praying with other Christians. I have struggled with this, especially in light of what happened at our conference and was alluded to in a previous post. As far as our Synod's stance on fellowship, I get it. I agree on most points. But this prayer thing. It just seems that on many fellowship issues, we hold on to them and drive them so deep, that we offend. Then who is throwing obstacles in the way of other Christians and causing division? I was one who prayed along with Dr. Ben Freudenburg's prayer and felt that I did no wrong. I have mixed feelings about how some of my WELS brothers and sisters may feel about this(and me). I have read the passages that our Synod bases it's practices on. Quite frankly, I don't see the relevance in this circumstance. Those passages to me clearly define examples that are much more serious than praying with someone who is much, much more like me in faith than different. I understand that we should be careful. If we relax on some point, then it will be much easier on the next issue and so on.....and soon we find we've compromised everything away. But, what about that beautifully crafted devotion that Pastor Henkel gave about counting kernels and steps? We mustn't be so quick to judge. A worship service wasn't being conducted. There was no communion given. There were no baptisms. Sometimes I think that if one believes in Christ crucified, the Triune God and being baptized is THE way home, that should be good enough, especially when we KNOW that fellow believer is more, MUCH more like us than different."
In His Peace,
Joe Krohn
WELS Church and Change:
Our problem in the WELS lies in our propensity to make immediate assumptions regarding individuals who are members of other denominations. We live in a post-denominational society, i.e. people put much less stock in denomination as an indicator of who they are or what they precisely believe. Whether we agree with this approach to life or not, it is the reality of our times. Therefore, we should not immediately assume that the Catholic, Methodist, or Baptist we are talking to has come to any real doctrinal conclusions about anything. Our insistence that an individual's denomination makes him/her a "persistent errorist" is flawed. I have met far more non-WELS Christians who would more appropriately fit the descriptor of "weak brother." In such cases we are charged by God to embrace and encourage, not exclude and denounce. Yet all too often it
seems we do the latter. I have dozens of friends who are intensely Biblical Christians who joined a church because they saw very active ministry going on and wanted to be a part of it. A "Baptist" friend of mine was drawn into Uptown Baptist in Chicago because of their aggressive urban outreach ministry. He was no more "Baptist" than I. He was actually a "WELS" Christian in Baptist clothing; he had never been exposed to the WELS and had no clue it existed. He didn't join Uptown because of any doctrinal stance, rather he was attracted by their sense of mission and outreach. He is now a fully functioning WELS member who regularly is confused by our law-based approach to fellowship. Many Christians fit into this category. If we would embrace such folks in a loving manner and celebrate what we share, rather than immediately point out differences, our church's strength--Biblical purity--would draw many, many more well-meaning, but "confused" people into our midst. Instead, sadly, we are regularly dis-invitational and law-based in our approach to
our Christian brothers from other church bodies. Let's turn this train around before our synod dies a slow, self-righteous death. Let's share the wonderful truth that we have through pro-activity and gospel-motivated interactions.
Kole K.
P.S. How is this for an outrageous addendum? I think it is time to reflect who we really are while holding to our Lutheran Confessions by changing the name of our church body to: FOLLOWERS OF JESUS (A Lutheran Church, formerly the WELS) Boy now I'm in trouble as soon as I push this send button…
Brother Bob Gurgel
Pastor Gurgel and all else,
Let's change the name today!! I love it!
In Christ,
Scott Gostchock
Dear Pastor Gurgel,
I like the name change idea. At times I have wondered this: I love my/our Lutheran heritage. However, to an outsider that has merely looked at us and other churches superficiously, I wander what they think. We talk about holding to the Lutheran Confessions, the Augsburg Confession, what is contained in The Book of Concord. The Mormons hold to The Book of Mormon and the teachings of their forefathers. Other churches I would guess have their sources/standards by which they base their doctrines. Some of it sounds cultish. I like the Followers of Jesus, because THAT is who we are. NOT followers of Luther. And wasn't it Luther who urged his successors NOT to call themselves Lutherans? Luther ALWAYS pointed to where he was coming from. The Word of God.
Have a Blessed Christmas Season everyone!!!
Joe Krohn
Literature! And you thought the CG crowd could not spell!
In Christ,
from WELS church lady
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