where Ichabod was held prisoner
for several months.
It looks like the Wartburg
but smells like tiger meat.
ICHABOD, THE GLORY HAS DEPARTED - explores the Age of Apostasy, predicted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, to attack Objective Faithless Justification, Church Growth Clowns, and their ringmasters. The antidote is trusting the efficacious Word in the Means of Grace. John 16:8. Isaiah 55:8ff. Romans 10. Most readers are WELS, LCMS, ELS, or ELCA. This blog also covers the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the National Council of Churches.


Bailing Water published his own eulogy page, the third editor to die in the line of fire. I saw it coming. He seemed drained. At other times his face was flushed.
But someone pumped him up. He is back - better than ever. I am copying his latest.
Saturday, February 2, 2008
Ok let's work for change - Let's kick it up a notch
BW Partners -
I'm back (at least for this post).
And I have a new idea that I thought we should try before we bail!!! (We are going to try and reach our target audience more effectively - the Church and Change group). Let's flood their ballot box.
Let's start a grass roots effort. Please visit the Church and Change website.
http://www.churchandchange.org/
Submit your ideas for the next Conference in November 2009 (?). They are thinking way ahead.
I encourage you to leave your suggested idea as a comment on BW too.
How 'bout these ideas for the next conference:
A study of the historic western rite --
Communion (how often is too much) :)
A workshop on the Book of Concord
Valid Lutheran sources for my next sermon
Do we need to cite our sources? (St. Mark's is now citing their sermon sources)
Copyright laws - are they adiophora?
Teaching the laity the liturgy - Oprah style

A. Nony Mouse has left a new comment on your post "Rev. Mouse Misses the Boat on Jonah":
BTW, you've never answered the question in the Jonah post that asked how many years you served as a parish pastor, compared to the number of years you spent in an academic setting, gathering a number of degrees. Full disclosure - what is the answer? The point is that cogitating on these matters is not the same as living among a congregation and carrying out ministry. It is hard, imprecise work - often rewarding, but sometimes frustrating. How much experience do you have on the front lines, compared to sheltering in the rear guard, out of any real danger, lobbing smart bombs at a distant enemy?
***
GJ - Answered in the autobiography. Please take time to read before posting another unseemly hissy-fit. As anyone can tell, I provide 50 plus sermons per year plus 26 live Holy Communion services. One clear indication of a live service is the worship bulletin. A little math will show that I have served 35 years as a pastor.
J-504 - 2 Corinthians 5:19 - Ask Lenski
"We do not find the idea that Paul here says that when Christ died, when in and by His death God reconciled the world objectively, He then and there (or at the time of Christ's resurrection) forgave all sins to the whole world. Autois (Autois) = individuals and refers to their subjective reconciliation. The use so often made of this passage should be modified. On the question of universal and personal justification consult the author's Interpretation of Romans, 5:10, also 1:17.”
R. C. H. Lenski, Corinthians, Columbus: Wartburg Press, 1946, p. 1048. 2 Corinthians 5:19; Romans 5:10; Romans 1:17. [GJ - This explains Stormtrooper animosity toward Lenski, a genuine Biblical scholar. WELS, LCMS, and ELS seminary students are encouraged to use Lenski, properly so. But how can Lenski be so accurate and reliable about the entire New Testament and get justification wrong? Perhaps he is consistent and the old Synodical Conference is wrong.]
J-505 - Raised for Our Justification: Ask Luther
“The resurrection and life of Jesus Christ is a cause, that is, an efficacious means of our spiritual resurrection and spiritual life; for it causes us to believe and to rise (from sin), as we read in 10:9: ‘If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.’ In Christ’s death we die unto spiritual life, as we read in 6:3-4: ‘So many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death (that) we also should walk in newness of life.’”
Martin Luther, Commentary on Romans, trans. J. Theodore Mueller, Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1954, p. 93. Romans 5:10.
J-509 - UOJ Missing in Romans, Too
"Nowhere in the Bible is any man constituted or declared righteous ‘without faith, before faith.’”
R. C. H. Lenski, Romans, Augsburg Publishing House: Minneapolis, 1963, p. 382. Romans 5:19-20.
J-510 - The Apology - To Justify Believers
"The Third Article the adversaries approve, in which we confess that there are in Christ two natures, namely, a human nature, assumed by the Word into the unity of His person; and that the same Christ suffered and died to reconcile the Father to us; and that He was raised again to reign, and to justify and sanctify believers, etc., according to the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, III. #52. Of Christ, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 119. Romans 4:25; 2 Corinthians 5:19ff. Tappert, p. 107. Heiser, p. 32.
J-514 - Stormtroopers' Colored Glasses See UOJ Everywhere
"They [the false teachers] fared like a man who looks through a colored glass. Put before such a man whatever color you please, he sees no other color than that of the glass. The fault is not that the right color is not put before him but that his glass is colored differently, as the word of Is. 6:9 puts it: You will see, he says, and yet you will not see it."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, II, p. 644. Isaiah 6:9.
J-515 - Kelm's Upside Down Gospel Is Wrong
"In like manner Moses must precede and teach people to feel their sins in order that grace may be sweet and welcome to them. Therefore all is in vain, however friendly and lovely Christ may be pictured, if man is not first humbled by a knowledge of himself and he possesses no longing for Christ, as Mary's Song says, 'The hungry he hath filled with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away,' Luke 1:53."
Sermons of Martin Luther, ed., John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, II, p. 149. Matthew 15:21-28; Luke 1:53. [GJ - Paul Kelm starts with the Gospel and moves to the Law, calling it Upside Down Evangelism. Wayne Mueller advocates the same nonsense.]
J-516 - Luther Wiser Than Kelm and Mueller
"The apostle says 'our,' 'our sins;' not his own sin, not the sins of unbelievers. Purification is not for, and cannot profit, him who does not believe. Nor did Christ effect the cleansing by our free-will, our reason or power, our works, our contrition or repentance, these all being worthless in the sight of God; he effects it by himself. And how? By taking our sins upon himself on the holy cross, as Isaiah 53:6 tells us."
Sermons of Martin Luther, ed., John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, VI, p. 180. Hebrews 1:1-12; Hebrews 1:3.
J-518 - Forgiveness Requires Faith
"To this incline your ears, and be persuaded that God speaks through men and forgives you your sins; this, of course, requires faith."
Sermons of Martin Luther, 8 vols., ed. John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, II, p. 200.
J-519 - Illiterate Stormtroopers Get This Part Mixed Up
"If I do not believe it, I will not receive its benefits; but that neither renders it false nor proves that anything is lacking in Christ."
Sermons of Martin Luther, 8 vols., ed., John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, II, p. 258. Easter, Third Sermon. Mark 16:1-8. [GJ - This statement is trustworthy, but UOJ Stormtroopers twist it into universalism. They want everyone declared--without the Word--forgiven of their sins. Their position is Universalism tempered by Enthusiasm.]
J-520 - Worth Memorizing
"It is a faithful saying that Christ has accomplished everything, has removed sin and overcome every enemy, so that through Him we are lords over all things. But the treasure lies yet in one pile; it is not yet distributed nor invested. Consequently, if we are to possess it, the Holy Spirit must come and teach our hearts to believe and say: I, too, am one of those who are to have this treasure. When we feel that God has thus helped us and given the treasure to us, everything goes well, and it cannot be otherwise than that man's heart rejoices in God and lifts itself up, saying: Dear Father, if it is Thy will to show toward me such great love and faithfulness, which I cannot fully fathom, then will I also love Thee with all my heart and be joyful, and cheerfully do what pleases Thee. Thus, the heart does not now look at God with evil eyes, does not imagine He will cast us into hell, as it did before the HS came...."
Sermons of Martin Luther, 8 vols., ed., John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1983, III, p. 279. Pentecost Sunday. John 14:23-31.
J-528 - Melanchthon in Harmony with Luther
"Faith is that my whole heart takes to itself this treasure. It is not my doing, not my presenting or giving, not my work or preparation, but that a heart comforts itself, and is perfectly confident with respect to this, namely, that God makes a present and gift to us, and not we to Him, that He sheds upon us every treasure of grace in Christ."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, IV. #48. Of Justification. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 135. Heiser, p. 36.
J-545 - Formula of Concord in Harmony with Luther
"These treasures are offered us by the Holy Ghost in the promise of the holy Gospel; and faith alone is the only means by which we lay hold upon, accept, and apply, and appropriate them to ourselves. This faith is a gift of God, by which we truly learn to know Christ, our Redeemer, in the Word of the Gospel, and trust in Him, that for the sake of His obedience alone we have the forgiveness of sins by grace, are regarded as godly and righteous by God the Father, and are eternally saved."
Formula of Concord, Thorough Declaration, III. #10. Of the Righteousness of Faith before God. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 919. Tappert, p. 541. Heiser, p. 250.
J-523 - Luther Not a UOJ Advocate
"Christ did indeed suffer for the whole world; but how many are there who believe and cherish this fact? Therefore, although the work of redemption itself has been accomplished, it still cannot help and benefit a man unless he believes it and experiences its saving power in his heart."
What Luther Says, An Anthology, 3 vols., ed., Ewald Plass, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, II, p. 705f. Smalcald, 1537.
J-524 - Walther Contradicts Himself
"If remission of sins without repentance is preached, the people imagine that they have already forgiveness of sins, and thereby they are made secure and unconcerned. This is a greater error and sin than all error of former times, and it is verily to be feared that we are in that danger which Christ points out when He says, Matthew 12:45: 'The last state of that man shall be worse than the first.'"
C. F. W. Walther, The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel, trans., W. H. T. Dau, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1928, p. 123. Matthew 12:45. [GJ - Augustine was not always correct. Neither was Luther - when he prayed to Mary. Walther is correct here but wrong in his Easter absolution sermon. The old Synodical Conference follows Walther only when he is in error.]
J-527 Apology: Justification by Faith
"The Third Article the adversaries approve, in which we confess that there are in Christ two natures, namely, a human nature, assumed by the Word into the unity of His person; and that the same Christ suffered and died to reconcile the Father to us; and that He was raised again to reign, and to justify and sanctify believers, etc., according to the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, III. #52. Of Christ, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 119. Romans 4:25; 2 Corinthians 5:19ff. Tapper, p. 107. Heiser, p. 32.
J-529 Connecting Promise and Faith
"Now, that faith signifies, not only a knowledge of the history, but such faith as assents to the promise, Paul plainly testifies when he says, Romans 4:16: 'Therefore it is of faith, to the end the promise might be sure.' For he judges that the promise cannot be received unless by faith. Wherefore he puts them together as things that belong to one another, and connects promise and faith."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article IV. #51. Of Justification, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 135. Romans 4:16. Tappert, p. 114. Heiser, p. 36.
J-530
"This faith, encouraging and consoling in these fears, receives remission of sins, justifies and quickens. For this consolation is a new and spiritual life [a new birth and a new life]. These things are plain and clear, and can be understood by the pious, and have testimonies of the Church [as is to be seen in the conversion of Paul and Augustine]. The adversaries nowhere can say how the Holy Ghost is given. They imagine that the Sacraments confer the Holy Ghost ex opere operato, without a good emotion in the recipient, as though, indeed, the gift of the Holy Ghost were an idle matter."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article IV. #63. Of Justification,, Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 139. Tappert, p. 115. Heiser, p. 37.
J-531 Faith Alone Justifies
"Now we will show that faith [and nothing else] justifies."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, IV. #69. Of Justification. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 141. Tappert, p. 116. Heiser, p. 37.
J-534
"But since we receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost by faith alone, faith alone justifies, because those reconciled are accounted righteous and children of God, not on account of their own purity, but through mercy for Christ's sake, provided only they by faith apprehend this mercy."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, IV. #86. Of Justification. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 147. Tappert, p. 119. Heiser, p. 39.
J-539 - Walther, ELS, WELS, LCMS - Gravely Mistaken
“That absolutionhowever, is not received except by faith, can be proved from Paul, who teaches, Romans 4:16, that the promise cannot be received except by faith. But absolution is the promise of the remission of sins [nothing else than the Gospel, the divine promise of God’s grace and favor]. Therefore, it necessarily requires faith. Neither do we see how he who does not assent to it may be said to receive absolution.”
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, XII. #61-62. Of Repentance. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 269. Romans 4:16. Tappert, p. 190. Heiser, p. 83.
J-549 Formula of Concord, Faith Alone
"Moreover, neither contrition nor love or any other virtue, but faith alone is the sole means and instrument by which and through which we can receive and accept the grace of God, the merit of Christ, and the forgiveness of sins, which are offered us in the promise of the Gospel."
Formula of Concord, Thorough Declaration, III. #31. Of the Righteous of Faith before God. Concordia Triglotta, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1921, p. 925. Tappert, p. 544. Heiser, p. 252.
J-554 - Chytraeus, Concordist, By Faith Alone
"Christian righteousness is the forgiveness of sin, the imputation of the righteousness of Christ and acceptance to eternal life. It is free, not the result of any virtues or works but is given solely because of Christ, the Mediator, and apprehended by faith alone."
David Chytraeus, A Summary of the Christian Faith (1568), trans., Richard Dinda, Decatur: Repristination Press, 1994. p. 106.
J-555 Chemnitz, Concordist, Explains Faith to the Stormtroopers
"We must note the foundations. For we are justified by faith, not because it is so firm, robust, and perfect a virtue, but because of the object on which it lays hold, namely Christ, who is the Mediator in the promise of grace. Therefore when faith does not err in its object, but lays hold on that true object, although with a weak faith, or at least tries and wants to lay hold on Christ, then there is true faith, and it justifies. The reason for this is demonstrated in those lovely statements in Philippians 3:12: 'I apprehend, or rather I am apprehended by Christ' and Galatians 4:9: 'You have known God, or rather have been known by God.' Scripture shows a beautiful example of this in Mark 9:24: 'I believe; help my unbelief.'"
Martin Chemnitz, Loci Theologici, 2 vols., trans. J. A. O. Preus, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1989, II, p. 503. Philippians 3:12; Galatians 4:9; Mark 9:24.
"For we are not justified because of our faith (propter fidem), in the sense of faith being a virtue or good work on our part. Thus we pray, as did the man in Mark 9:24: 'I believe, Lord; help my unbelief'; and with the apostles: 'Lord, increase our faith,' Luke 17:5."
Martin Chemnitz, Loci Theologici, 2 vols., trans. J. A. O. Preus, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1989, II, p. 506 Mark 9:24; Luke 17:5.
Andreae, Concordist, Absolution Only Through Faith
"Concerning the article on the justification of the poor sinner in God's sight, we believe, teach, and confess on the basis of God's Word and the position of our Christian Augsburg Confession that the poor, sinful person is justified in God's sight—that is, he is pronounced free and absolved of his sins and receives forgiveness for them—only through faith, because of the innocent, complete, and unique obedience and the bitter sufferings and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, not because of the indwelling, essential righteousness of God or because of his own good works, which either precede or result from faith. We reject all doctrines contrary to this belief and confession."
Jacob Andreae, Confession and Brief Explanation of Certain Disputed Articles. Cited in Robert Kolb, Andreae and the Formula of Concord, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1977, p. 58.
***
GJ - Cracks are starting to appear in the UOJ fantasy world of WELS-ELS-LCMS. The clergy are too timid to deal with these issues, but the laity are asking questions. Every so often WELS has to publish another version of their doctrinal error - The Two Justifications.
The problem with heresy comes from clever men handing it down to the semi-literate. Walther invented UOJ for America, although he surely got it from the Pietism of Europe. UOJ slowly penetrated the LCMS, reaching canonical status in the Brief Statement, the swan song of F. Pieper.
The foundational error of UOJ is Synodical-Conference-Worship. If they could study documents earlier than Walther and accept the Word of God rather than Walther as the ruling norm (norma normans) of faith, they could deal with UOJ.
Now politicians are handling UOJ, making matters even worse. They do not have enough training to keep UOJ from morphing into something worse than it is already. Thus we see the ELS--with no theologians in charge--proclaiming that Christ saved the entire world. They would be laughed out of a serious theological conference, not for being Lutheran (which they are not) but for being Universalists without admitting it.
Dr. Robert Preus once taught UOJ in all its glory. He jumped off that runaway train in his last book, Justification and Rome.
If Pope John the Malefactor could write a whole book, it would be called Just a Vacation in Rome.

The Wisconsin Synod is studying plans to sell their sanctified and sanctifying Love Shack to commercial developers. Some wits think it could be a leather goods shop, just add a G to the sign - The GLove Shack.
However, The Love Shack is just a nickname, not a trademark, unlike the lavender cross with the bite marks. I would illustrate the WELS trademark, but hordes of nasty lawyers would descend on me and force me to listen to Wayne Mueller audio tapes.
The Love Shack traces its name to the term in tennis. When the tennis players shout "30 - Love," they are referring to the zero, not their hobby. In France Le Zero (l'oeuf) sounds like Love, especially when spoken by Englishmen three sheets to the wind.
The name Love Shack really means Zero, as in Zero Love, Zero Growth, Zero Interest in the Book of Concord.

New England Patriots, 19 - 0, Until the Game Ended
I hope everyone enjoyed the Superbowl, played in our backyard. I watched the UOP Stadium go up during my frequent trips to teach in Yuma. Before that I enjoyed the turf battles over who would build it. The East Valley cities did not work together until Glendale (West Valley) received the nod. Suddenly, the East Valley decided to unite against the evil West Valley. We are the blue collar guys, who think a seven-course dinner is a large bag of Fritos and a six-pack of Bud. Scottsdale is the elegant venue. Chandler (East Valley) has a $3 billion Intel robot-run chip plant. Glendale has the world headquarters for Petsmart.
Time after time, the favored team saunters into the stadium while everyone derides the poor victim. Oh how I enjoyed watching Ohio State arrive last year as the anointed college football (BCS) champions, with a Heisman player on their team. The other team was scorned, pitied, and ignored. Ohio State was thrashed and Mr. Heisman looked like and acted like a loser by half-time.
This year the New England Patriots had the 19th game won before they began. I began to cheer the Giants for holding the invincible Pats to a small margain. When the game was won in the last seconds and a miracle Pats play was quashed, I was elated. Finally, an interesting Superbowl!
Bouts of self-congratulations have ruined the Lutheran organizations. I hesitate to call them synods. They are all so obsessed with Management by Objective that they should be seen for what they are. I first heard about MBO in the LCA. Then I learned about Fuller Seminary promoting Drucker's MBO. ELCA, WELS, ELS, LCMS - all are obsessed with MBO, but not concerned with doctrine, unless that means enforcing false doctrine.
Fear drives the Lutherans now. That is why mediocrities are so terrified of having anyone discuss the real issues.
I was bringing in my shoes from outside when I remembered a friend asking me about scorpions. They are definitely in Phoenix, but I have never seen one, live or dead. He said, "I hear you better shake out your shoes when you leave them outside. The scorpions will crawl in and sting you." I still leave my shoes outside, but every time I am tempted to put them on immediately, I hear those words, like a bad dream after anaesthesia. "Scorpions. Crawl in. Sting."
If anyone starts to address the doctrinal issues, the scorpion-baiters will start shouting, "They will divide our beloved synod. I love my synod. Don't let them wreck our synod."
No, let the leaders do it by themselves.
A. Nony Mouse has left a new comment on your post "Brief Autobiography":
I hope your reference to the Mayflower moving van and Jonah is not an attempt to equate your moves to that of Jonah in the great fish. You flatter yourself if you believe that you are on a par with an OT prophet.
***
GJ - How little they learn at the Sausage Factory in Mequon. They do learn that WELS is infallible and that all decisions, no matter how corrupt and apostate, are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. They must not teach the Book of Jonah, which contradicts Fuller and Leonard Sweet in every verse.
Most people recognize that the Book of Jonah teaches that God's Word is God's will. No one can escape that, even with a DMin from Fuller Seminary and a certificate of perfect attendance at Willow Creek Community Church.
In short, Rev. Mouse, the Book of Jonah is about God, not man.

Everyone on the faculty had one doctorate or more. Henri Nouwen had two. So all the professors were addressed as Mr., except the one woman professor.
Mr. Dahl was not a celebrity New Testament scholar. He did not create headlines with radical, apostate books. Instead he emphasized the text. We were supposed to know about the liberal theories. Dahl studied under the European scholars, including Bultmann, but he disagreed with Bultmann. Like Abraham Malherbe (my Thessalonians professor) Dahl wanted each student to spend most of his time on the text.
Mr. and Mrs. Dahl were very kindly. They lost a baby when they were newly married in Europe, something few people knew about. When they learned our daughter Bethany had a terminal disorder, Mrs. Dahl opened up the locket around her neck and showed us the baby they lost. She always wore that locket.
Bethesda Lutheran Church had been Augustana Synod. The Swedes were fairly dense in Connecticut. So Bethesda had a Swedish service every so often. Paul Holmer played the organ and Dahl preached.

CHARLESTON, SC: New Post-Colonial Anglican Communion is Emerging, says Bishop Duncan
By David W. Virtue in Charleston, SC
www.virtueonline.org
February 1, 2008
Common Cause Partnership, Anglican Communion Moderator and Pittsburgh Bishop Robert Duncan told a gathering of bishops, clergy and laity at the annual Mere Anglican conference that a new post-colonial Anglican Communion is emerging in the Communion even as The Episcopal Church is disintegrating.
"The Church moves from consensus through disintegration to consensus. We are in the period of disintegration. A new Elizabethan Settlement is required, between consensus and the horrendous disintegration we are seeing," he said. "As the book of Hebrews, chapter 11 tells us we have no lasting city, but there is a city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God. We know how the book ends, and we have a lasting city. God wins again."
Drawing on the long history of the Anglican Communion, Duncan said the old Elizabethan Settlement is dead and a new reformation with a new consensus is emerging as Mere Anglicanism, which will have new systems and structures.
Observing developments since the Sept. 30 HOB meeting in New Orleans, Duncan noted that there are implications for Anglicanism. "I am still the bishop (applause and laughter). I am my old uninhibited self. We learn by suffering that is my family motto."
Duncan said that, since the threat of inhibition, each visitation he has made on Sunday has been met with responses that have blown his mind. "I had a Baptist minister in a local congregation come to express his solidarity with me for my stand for God's word. Recently, an Assemblies of God leader came to express to me that her whole congregation was praying for me. There is a Christian convergence going on as we all stand for the faith once for all delivered to the saints."
***
GJ - The Lutheran Church is disintegrating. Oddly, the Episcopalians are leagues ahead of the Lutherans in fixing the problem. Episcopalian bishops have the spine to stand up to the Presiding Bishop, the Lavender Mafia, and the apostate priests. The Lutheran leaders do not. The Episcopalians think the answer is to find their traditions again. The Lutheran dissenters want to bail out to Rome or Constantinople.
The Lutherans do not want to bring back Luther's doctrine: they want to bring back Mary!