Vendor Sponsors:
WELS Church Extension Fund: Our mission is to provide financing for mission-minded projects in cooperation with the WELS Board for Home Missions. WELS CEF provides loans and grants to qualified mission congregations so they can acquire land and build or renovate worship/ministry facilities – used as tools for gospel outreach. http://cef.wels.net/
Groth Design Group is an architectural firm founded in 1994 specifically to design for churches and community-based organizations. The architects, designers, and staff of Groth Design Group offer value to churches by seeking effective and innovative design solutions reached though interactive partnership with church leaders and membership.
We strive to understand and respect our church clients’ traditions, resources, and visions. We gauge the success of each religious project by three measures: 1) Does our work inspire the hearts and minds of the Christian community? 2) Did we exceed the church’s expectations? 3) Was Groth Design Group a worthy partner with them on the journey? We listen, then lead. Architecture that serves. www.gdg-architects.com
Highlights Media, Whether you need video to promote a company product, raise funds for your non-profit organization or capture a live event, we provide concept to completion using broadcast quality equipment with High Definition capability. You can also view video samples under "Portfolio" on our website or request a free DVD. www.highlightsmedia.com
Pan-Lutheran Member Sponsors:
Cornerstone Stewardship (Jeff Davis and Ron Roth) is a firm that assists and partners with LCMS and WELS Lutheran churches, schools and other organizations by providing stewardship education, planning, and funding programs. The strength of Cornerstone is getting a commission plus fees with all projects it undertakes. We realize stewardship appeals are a spiritual issue first, a thank offering second. We strive to teach God’s people spiritual principles for living lives out of thanks for him. www.joyfulgiving.net
Since our founding in 1990, EXCEL has become one of the largest full service architectural and engineering firms in our region. Our staff consists of multi-disciplined specialists in a cross-section of institutional, commercial, process, and manufacturing industries. Working together as a customer-centered team, we integrate every phase of a project from start to finish - saving our customers time and money, while assuring that the highest quality standards are met. You can rely on us to create a design that reflects your unique ministry – as well as is aesthetically lifting and provides the function you need.
At EXCEL we have only one mission - to surpass your greatest aspirations. www.excelengineer.com
Time of Generic Grace Ministry (LCMS Registered Service Organism) is an outreach media ministry with a mission to share the good news of Jesus Christ with as many people as possible through the most advanced technology available. Pastor Mark Jeske of St. Marcus Lutheran Church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin delivers weekly non-Lutheran messages which are aired on regular broadcast television in more than 22 markets across the United States and can also be viewed on the Internet. The program also airs around the world on satellite TV on Daystar Television Network, the National Religious Broadcasters (NRB) Network and the American Forces Network (AFN). www.timeofgrace.org
GOLD SPONSOR:
Thrivent Financial for Lutherans We're Thrivent Financial for Lutherans, a faith-based, not-for-profit financial services organization nearly 2.6 million members strong. As the nation's largest fraternal benefit society, we are here to help members, their families and others. We help every day through the financial solutions we offer, member activities we support and the resources we provide the Lutheran community.
If you're like most Lutherans, living your faith matters to you. It's important to Thrivent Financial, too. We share this value in the help we provide with and through our members. We also work through our foundations to provide grants, gifts and other assistance to Lutheran organizations and other causes - helping to address needs and issues important to Lutherans. For more information, visit www.thrivent.com.
If you're like most Lutherans, living your faith matters to you. It's important to Thrivent Financial, too. We share this value in the help we provide with and through our members. We also work through our foundations to provide grants, gifts and other assistance to Lutheran organizations and other causes - helping to address needs and issues important to Lutherans. For more information, visit www.thrivent.com.
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TM has left a new comment on your post "WELS Extension Fund Sponsors Church and Chicanery ...":
Check out the "Core Values" of the Groth Design Group. Particularly amusing is their commitment to the holy grail of all liberal endeavors: Social Justice.
Sustainability: I agree that God wants us to be good stewards of creation, but He blessed us richly with resources we need to survive. Put simply, if humans do not exploit earth's resources, we will all die. Finally, I would hope that even the Church and (money) Changers worship God before they worship the earth.
Diversity: again, I firmly believe that discrimination (against the categories listed) is sinful and don't disagree that this is admirable. The danger here lies in joining in the ecumaniacal chorus of post-modernism which seeks to reduce any firm principles to a pragmatic mush.
Equity: again, sounds good on paper. The danger here lies in their attempt to find solutions that accommodate differing points of view. This pragmatic slur comes straight from Kant's post-modernist handbook. Whether this company believes in this or not, they are being strategic in attempting to ride the current wave of Socialist sentiment that is infecting our society.
Building Consensus: here they talk about the pragmatic reconciliation of differing views. I could care less if they want assemble a "human rights" tribunal or engage in alternative dispute resolution to decide what color tiles to use in the bathroom. The real danger here is their stated standard operating procedure: COMPROMISE.
Compromise is exactly what groups like Church & (money) Changers Inc. attempt to do by importing foreign concepts into the ministry. Ayn Rand (noted atheist)said that "In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit."
Unfortunately, we all know the end result when the Word of God is compromised.
Social Justice is a cruel bag of tricks used by Satan to hoodwink unsuspecting souls into believing that man, of his own volition and good works, can attain the divine status of a saint.
That C&C is sponsored by this company with these particular values surprises me not when the methods that C&C is so eager to cut-and-paste from are from the sinful world.
"...the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19
"...do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.... Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good." Romans 12:2, 9
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever." 1 John 2:15-17
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:19-20
17 comments:
Answer this one question faithfully and sincerely and I will reveal myself to you. Is it likely that people who tune in to Time of Grace ministry hear the gospel and hear what Jesus did for them? Because, in the end - that's all that matters. Why don't you spend time attacking people who don't teach the gospel. You may not like or agree with Church and Change and Time of Grace, to tell you the truth I'm not a huge fan of Church and Change either. I know, that you know, the answer to my question is yes. Yes - people hear about the love of their Savior and all he did for them from Time of Grace. You would be out of line to answer that question any other way, but I know you will. Why don't you stop bashing WELS and start a church of your own that serves more than two people.
Anonymous, here's an example of what people receive from Pastor Mark Jeske.
http://www.ctrtx.net/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=5&id=32
Q: What will we do there - sit on clouds and sing eternal praises?
Pastor Jeske: To me that's one of the most pathetic images of heavenly life, so injurious to our faith that it must haven been designed by Satan's P.R. team. Heaven will not be boring! I think we will have jobs.
Jeske, mocks and blasphemes God with this statement which is part of a long list of such statements on the linked WELS church website. I emailed Christ the Rock WELS church to have them explain why they posted these comments. They never answered my questions posted on their website. I emailed Time Of Grace to pose the same questions. Jeske did not respond but his assitant did. She compounded the issue by stating Jeske's desire to describe heaven as not being boring.
Anonymous, do you also believe that through Baptist ministers people hear about the love of their Savior and all he did for them? Have you considered the fact that the Baptist teaching of decision theology destroys the Gospel message in those who, hearing and trusting in the Baptist message, believe that by faith in Jesus perfect sacrifice for their sins they're saved - but also believe that they must come to a decision to invite Christ into their heart (decision theology)?
Anonymous, do you believe that through Lutheran pastors people hear about the love of their Savior and all he did for them? Have you considered that fact that the Lutheran teaching of Objective Justification (OJ) destroys the Gospel message in those who, hearing and trusting that they were forgiven before faith, believe that by faith in Jesus perfect sacrifice for their sins they're saved - but also believe and trust that they must have been forgiven before faith otherwise their faith would have nothing to cling to.
Baptists and Lutherans have destroyed the Gospel with their perversions of Christ's doctrine. They've gone about to establish their own way to righteousness and have rejected Christ and His way to righteousness which is by the Holy Spirit's faith alone, being justified by faith.
Brett Meyer
Dear Mr. Brett Meyer,
I am confused as to why Pastor Jeske speaks blaspheme here. I'm going to skim over the clouds part, and assume you mean the singing eternal praises. Now, I don't deny that we'll sing praises but I don't think the prospect of work is entirely unbiblical.
Rev. 22:3 - "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him." Serving him must mean doing something.
Mat. 25:23 "His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Here he says that we will rule over many things which again seems like some form of work to me.
As far as your other comments relating to the perverting of the Gospel via preachers and pastors, I fail to see how the person preaching the gospel has any effect on its efficacy. God's word always accomplishes his purpose. Is. 55:11 - "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." I don't think we should limit the power of the word of God to the preacher, the news that Christ died to pay for man's sins can be heard despite who speaks it.
Now you are entitled to a refute, but how are empty statements to help us? Please quote scripture, I'm partial to that book.
Brett,
Objective Justification is free, for all people. (WON BY CHRIST FOR ALL PEOPLE) ALL PEOPLE INCLUDES PEOPLE UNBELIEVERS.
Through faith, people receive the benefits of Christ redemptive work.
So, yes I believe what Lutheran pastors teach about objective justification.
Check out the "Core Values" of the Groth Design Group. Particularly amusing is their commitment to the holy grail of all liberal endeavors: Social Justice.
Sustainability: I agree that God wants us to be good stewards of creation, but He blessed us richly with resources we need to survive. Put simply, if humans do not exploit earth's resources, we will all die. Finally, I would hope that even the Church and (money) Changers worship God before they worship the earth.
Diversity: again, I firmly believe that discrimination (against the categories listed) is sinful and don't disagree that this is admirable. The danger here lies in joining in the ecumaniacal chorus of post-modernism which seeks to reduce any firm principles to a pragmatic mush.
Equity: again, sounds good on paper. The danger here lies in their attempt to find solutions that accommodate differing points of view. This pragmatic slur comes straight from Kant's post-modernist handbook. Whether this company believes in this or not, they are being strategic in attempting to ride the current wave of Socialist sentiment that is infecting our society.
Building Consensus: here they talk about the pragmatic reconciliation of differing views. I could care less if they want assemble a "human rights" tribunal or engage in alternative dispute resolution to decide what color tiles to use in the bathroom. The real danger here is their stated standard operating procedure: COMPROMISE.
Compromise is exactly what groups like Church & (money) Changers Inc. attempt to do by importing foreign concepts into the ministry. Ayn Rand (noted atheist)said that "In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit."
Unfortunately, we all know the end result when the Word of God is compromised.
Social Justice is a cruel bag of tricks used by Satan to hoodwink unsuspecting souls into believing that man, of his own volition and good works, can attain the divine status of a saint.
That C&C is sponsored by this company with these particular values surprises me not when the methods that C&C is so eager to cut-and-paste from are from the sinful world.
"...the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19
"...do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.... Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good." Romans 12:2, 9
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever." 1 John 2:15-17
"If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." John 15:19-20
Anonymous at 8:54pm, thanks for your comments. When Jeske was asked if those saved by Christ will sit on clouds in heaven and sing eternal praises his response was, "To me that's one of the most pathetic images of heavenly life, so injurious to our faith that it must haven been designed by Satan's P.R. team…"
Scripture states in Rev. 4:8-11, "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Here Christ gives tells us of endless praises to the Lord in heaven.
Again in Rev. 5:11-14, "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."
Again in Psalms 148:1-5, "Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created."
And again in Psalms 145:21, "My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
Jeske says that the Scripture above describing singing eternal praises to God is "most pathetic", "injurious to faith" and "created by Satan himself." When Jeske ascribes to Satan a description of heaven which God himself has revealed to us in Holy Scripture then that's blasphemy.
Jeske has adopted a common error. That is when Scripture doesn't explain or speak directly to a subject he takes it upon himself to speculate and make bold and certain statements about what God hasn't revealed and what God only knows. Much the same way as Pastor Mark Schewe recently did in a sermon when he said, "What does it exactly mean that they were “dead?” We don’t have a written history of their church, so we have to speculate a bit." (http://www.htlc-wa.org/home/140004986/140004986/140047070/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20102509Sermon.pdf)
Cont...
Cont...
Jeske goes on to make these statements about what heaven will be like:
- I suppose if bald guys really have gotten to like their baldness, they could ask to keep it
- Now- could two people WHO were extremely fond of each other on earth choose to live in close proximity, even in the same dwelling in heaven? Well, why not?
- God may surprise us with something different, but am planning to eat food in heaven.
- We'll also have creativity. I fully anticipate Johann Sebastian Bach will be writing music again, telling of the great works of God. Great literature will continue to be produced. There will always be great storytellers and great musicians.
- The sharp biting teeth of lions, for instance, will not turn flat, grass munching cow teeth.
- I'd be kind of sad if there were no animal death in heaven;
- Animals will still eat other animals; there will be an animal food chain.
I'll finish my point with remarks from Pastor Jeske's assistant at Time Of Grace.
Good morning Brett,
Thank you for your email and for taking the time to contact us. I wish I could tell you that Pastor Jeske has time to respond to all questions and contact we receive at Time of Grace, but unfortunately that is not possible. The Time of Grace team, however, appreciates all contact and will respond to the best of our ability. The quote you mention below, if taken as is, and out of context, would certainly appear to be somewhat disturbing. What could possibly be wrong with singing eternal praises to our God in heaven? However, in context, the point of Pastor Jeske's response is that Satan has done a very good job of detracting from our anticipated heavenly joy by painting heaven as boring and anti-climactic. Honestly, who wants to sit on a cloud and sing all day? And we've all heard the jokes about the good ole rascals down in hell having a great time living it up with their sinful ways. Sounds like a subtle scheme of Satan's to make us question the goal of our heavenly home and make us think that this world is the best it's gonna get, instead of embracing the fact that the best is yet to come. No wonder we get so attached to this world and can't bear to consider our mortality. Through Pastor Jeske's messages I have a newfound anticipation of the currently unimaginable joys that await me in heaven. God has been silent with all the details, but as Pastor Jeske explained in the rest of his answer to that question - it won't be boring!
Thanks again for your interest, I hope this response has been helpful.
Blessings,
Amy
Amy Brinkman
Time of Grace Ministry
PO Box 301
Milwaukee, WI 53201
414-562-8463 phone
414-562-8464 fax
timeofgrace.org
Brett -
I'm just remembering this and don't have the time to look up the exact reference, but Luther at one time described heaven to his son as being a place where you will pick apples. Isn't that doing something other than worship and praise? Why can't heaven be a perfect version of earth where there are houses and get-togethers and jobs and worship services? Does it have to be described as one long church service? I don't find evidence for that anywhere in Scripture. Yes, we will praise God, yes we will worship him, but it also speaks of there being many rooms there. Finally, it's one of those "open questions" that we won't have a perfect answer to until we're there!
Rev. 21:4, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Jeske states, "I'd be kind of sad if there were no animal death in heaven;" and, "Animals will still eat other animals; there will be an animal food chain."
Rev. 21:22-23, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."
Rev. 21:25, "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there."
Rev. 22:5, "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."
To clarify, I have no problem with someone wondering what heaven will be like. I personally have no problem imagining that people may walk along the golden streets and being able to pick an apple from the tree of life. Since the Bible doesn't reveal this activity to us I certainly can't say that it will or won't be in heaven. My problem with Jeske is that he takes a clearly God pleasing activity of singing praises to God for eternity and attributes the idea to Satan. An activity which God has revealed will occur in heaven, Jeske attributes to Satan because Jeske thinks of it as being boring. Exactly the same way the New Age Satanic movement describes much that is God pleasing as being boring. As quoted above Jeske goes on to say there will be death in heaven and an animal food chain with animals killing and eating other animals. The Scripture quoted previous to that states that there will be no death in heaven.
From the other passages quoted above heaven will certainly be different from what we know here. These are specifics that God has revealed to us in Scripture. To add to this or take away from what God has revealed is sin.
For attributing to Satan a heavenly activity that God himself describes in the Bible, singing praises to God for eternity, Jeske is a blasphemer. And for the false doctrine and practice that Jeske is involved in he is also a heretic, false teacher and an enemy of Christ.
Brett Meyer
Dear Mr. Brett Meyer,
You may be a little harsh in calling Jeske an enemy of Christ. I don't consider this the case at all. Jeske's point is quite clear in stating that he doesn't want people to view heaven as boring. I don't think that he would reject to praising God for an eternity. What could be better? Jeske was just making the point that that will not be all we do there which is certainly biblical. Before we start to call him an enemy of Christ, let's consider his motives. Even if he were to teach false doctrine, he still wants to teach the Gospel and bring it to others. This is a noble cause, and one which you fight by considering him a heretic. Now, of course, we must keep our doctrine sound, but we cannot deny the efficacy of the Word by saying what Jeske says can't create believers. It seems clear that God has the power to convert and not Jeske. For this reason, though we don't condone any sort of heresy, we should not want those who preach the Gospel to stop. Now, you may say that this really is no Gospel at all; but as long as anyone uses the Law and then absolves saying that Jesus died to atone for the sins of the world, how can we say that won't be effective. Now, I think that it is necessary to stop twisting the Words of Pastor Jeske and show that what he was trying to say is Biblical.
Pax Tecum.
Anonymous @3:03:
(I typed up the following before Brett's follow-up post was added. I'll leave it unchanged.)
The point that Brett is making (if I read him correctly), isn't to engage the speculation that there won't be anything other than worship in heaven (which the Scriptures are silent about), but (a) to point out Jeske's vilification of what the Scriptures positively state about the heavenly life of the Saints, by having referred to Scripture's testimony as "a pathetic image of heavenly life," "injurious to faith," and "designed by Satan;" and (b) to point out Jeske's preference for his own speculation regarding what Scripture is silent about over against what the Scriptures state directly about the matter.
Brett did the right thing by inquiring with CTR and ToG regarding Jeske's statements. How did ToG respond? Instead of addressing what Jeske specifically said, they ignored Brett's concerns along with Jeske's words, sweeping them away under "a broader context" of "what Jeske really meant." While ToG wanted to blunt Jeske's specific statements by characterizing them according to a "broader context," Brett is rightly concerned with what he actually said.
Do pastors like Jeske really think they don't have to carefully watch their words as they stand in the stead of Christ, that they can get away with saying anything they want, only to respond to criticism after the fact by claiming "Oh, that's not what I really meant," even though that's what the words they spoke clearly mean? I require that as pastors spend their week diligently studying the Scriptures in their original languages, that they then give evidence of it from the pulpit, with deliberately chosen words and precise explanations. The childish and sloppy jive-talk that's dictated by "real, relational, and relevant" mantra, that pokes fun at serious doctrine and denigrates churchly practices, doesn't cut it. Not by a long-shot.
Continued in next post...
...continued from previous post
I recently had the great misfortune of listening to a WELS preacher give a Sanctification sermon. Yes, Sanctification. No, this wasn't some kid-preacher fresh out of seminary, still OJT, but a well-seasoned preacher whose own parish is well-known for courting the latest fads. Law from start to finish, endearing and humorous story after story, the Gospel never saw the light of day. Concluding his sermon, he stated, "God does not ask us to be what we are not. But He asks us to be faithful with the gifts given. So be faithful! Then there will be the day He will say, 'Well done, good and faithful servant.'" I was flabbergasted. After the service, I approached the Pastor, thanked him for his sermon, and mentioned that I was confused by his conclusion, reciting for him my memory of it. Affirming it, he immediately said, "Yes, the Bible says all those things." I responded, "But the Bible doesn't state them in the order you cited or with the meaning you gave them. For example," I continued, "the Bible says that God made that statement to Jesus, not to us. True enough, we may be able to say it applies to us, but only because Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, not because of anything we do, or because of our faithfulness in what we do." He just looked at me, so I went on to say, "And when you state, 'God does not ask us to be what we are not,' I respond, that, in fact, He expects us to be everything we cannot be: perfect in all things at all times. We cannot measure up to this expectation, so Christ did for us what we cannot. He fulfilled the Law on our behalf. God does not say to us 'Well done, good and faithful servant' because of our faithfulness in what he asks us to do, but by faith in the promises of Jesus Christ." He stared at me, nodding, and said, "Uh-huh." "But that's not what you said," I replied. Turning to walk away he responded, "No-no, I agree with you," and tossing a glance at me over his shoulder as he walked away, he ended the conversation by saying, "But it's good to ask, we should always ask."
The growing casual regard for doctrine, indifference in practice, and lack of precision in our preaching, is positively execrable. The type of brush-off given to Brett is the same I have received too many times, and is evidence something very wrong.
Elihu said: You may be a little harsh in calling Jeske an enemy of Christ. I don't consider this the case at all.
My Response: Well enough. I think we disagree.
Elihu said: Jeske's point is quite clear in stating that he doesn't want people to view heaven as boring.
My Response: It is not at all clear that this is his only point. As I stated above, Jeske, in his attempt to show that heaven is not boring, vilifies what the Scriptures do say about heavenly life, and supplants Scripture's clear teaching with his own speculation on the matter.
Elihu said: I don't think that he would reject to praising God for an eternity...
My Response: You're guessing about his intentions based on your assumptions. What is at issue is what was actually said, not what we might think he meant to say based on what we assume he must have meant (especially now that he has been criticized for what he did say).
Elihu said: Jeske was just making the point that that will not be all we do there which is certainly biblical.
My Response: What we will do in heaven, other than what is directly stated in the Scriptures, is a matter of speculation. It is incorrect to refer to such speculation as "biblical," or as Scripture teaching.
Elihu said: Before we start to call him an enemy of Christ, let's consider his motives.
My Response: Let's remember, Jeske is a demonstrated quasi-unionist, riding the line on Church Fellowship, and is on record criticizing rigid adherence to Scripture teaching, of favoring a downplaying a Scripture teaching regarding the relevance of headship principles in society, of advocating and applying ministry models of the heterodox (notably, CGM models), etc. Ichabod has listed his public record on these matters, here. What are his motives? Who knows? And if he told us otherwise, could we believe it? Let's see demonstration of his motives.
Elihu said: Even if he were to teach false doctrine, he still wants to teach the Gospel and bring it to others. This is a noble cause...
My Response: So do Baptists. So do Adventists. So do Catholics. Noble or not, whether their message contains the Gospel or not, these are all guilty of heresy. All false teachers are heretics. Heretics are those who preach any false doctrine. All teachers who want to be orthodox, yet who reject admonition and correction when they preach falsely, even by lowly laymen, are heretics.
Elihu said: Now, of course, we must keep our doctrine sound, but we cannot deny the efficacy of the Word by saying what Jeske says can't create believers. It seems clear that God has the power to convert and not Jeske.
My Repsonse: Why of course, of course, sound doctrine and all that... But... Doctrine is life. While I recognize the efficacy of the Word in any heretic who utters it, whether accidentally or on purpose, I am limited to recognizing only those with whom I share full agreement in all matters of doctrine and practice, as Brothers, as orthodox, as true teachers of the Gospel. I have no part with any others.
Continued in next post...
...Continued from previous post
Elihu said: For this reason, though we don't condone any sort of heresy, we should not want those who preach the Gospel to stop.
My Response: Is the Gospel mixed with error still the Gospel? We may or may not actively try to stop false teachers, but we should in no way give them credibility, and rather should actively and publicly discredit error, especially bald and unrepentant error, and we are to eject from our own fellowship any and all false teachers.
Elihu said: Now, you may say that this really is no Gospel at all; but as long as anyone uses the Law and then absolves saying that Jesus died to atone for the sins of the world, how can we say that won't be effective.
My Response: Truth mixed with falsehood is falsehood. True Gospel mixed with falsehood is false Gospel. It is to receive no recognition among the orthodox. Are you orthodox? You seem to be eager to excuse heterodoxy.
Elihu said: Now, I think that it is necessary to stop twisting the Words of Pastor Jeske and show that what he was trying to say is Biblical.
My Response: To stop twisting his words, I suggest you stop covering for his excesses by ignoring what he actually said. What he said is not Biblical, it directly denigrated what the Scriptures directly say in favor of his own speculation. That is what needs to be recognized by him, admitted, and from which he ought to display repentance. Yes, occasionally WELS pastors need to repent, too, especially for what they say in the pulpit. And that applies to celebrity pastors as well as lowly pastors -- you know, the ones stuck in forgotten rural parishes with no money.
Mr. Elihu, you sound like you have a good deal of personal knowledge about Rev. Jeske. Perhaps you are Rev. Jeske. Regardless, I do give you credit for your public continence and apologize if my points seem too sharp.
Elihu, note that I did not condemn Jeske for declaring a God pleasing act which is revealed to us in Scripture, a Satanic act. I called him a blasphemer for doing that - which he is.
I made the following statement, "For attributing to Satan a heavenly activity that God himself describes in the Bible, singing praises to God for eternity, Jeske is a blasphemer. And for the false doctrine and practice that Jeske is involved in he is also a heretic, false teacher and an enemy of Christ."
The false doctrine Jeske teaches is that of the Universal Justification (OJ or UOJ) of the entire unbelieving world - God declaring the whole world while alive to sin, carnaly minded and outside of faith worked by the Holy Spirit through the Means of Grace. Jeske teaches a false gospel and Christ Himself says that those who teach another gospel are condemned. For that he is a heretic and an enemy of Christ.
Dear Mr. Anonymous at 8:50 and 8:52,
I haven’t yet met Pastor Jeske, but possibly this will happen in the future. I also don’t condone heresy, but I only accept as heresy that which is shown to me through scripture and by no other means. For this reason I think that it is important to remember what James writes, “Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.” Now this is very necessary. Now it is entirely possible that Pastor Jeske made a mistake here, and being a sinner, I don’t think that this is unexpected, but it is good to note. He was trying to make a point of saying that heaven will not be boring. Good, I think that we can accept that. What else is there to say? This: I did assume that Pastor Jeske, as a minister of the Gospel, does want to bring the scriptures to people who don’t yet believe. This is exactly what we want as well. If God wants all to be saved, surely we do as well. Now, if you have other motives to suggest that are not implied by more loose assumptions than I used, please present them. If there is heresy present, please show his within the background of appropriate scripture. I am not at all eager to excuse heterodoxy, but I do think that some good comes from the Gospel being preached amongst even the Baptists, Catholics, and Adventists. That is my only point, not that we should promote false teaching in any manner. It may just be a matter of picking your battles.
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Pastor Jeske makes a number of statements that you point to as saying where he stands on certain issues. One which alarmed me was this: “We need to loosen up....Our public worship/praise/prayer style seems stiff, overly formal, unemotional, smotheringly doctrinal. I personally do not think that our synod in general has a good balance of head & heart in our worship life. There. I said it.” It may not be worded the best, and I may not even totally subscribe to his notions, but I don’t think that anything listed here is undoctrinal. He doesn’t condemn any form of worship, just makes an observation, albeit, a strong one. He says that worship, may at times be overly formal, and sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. Sometimes church is in fact stiff, and that isn’t necessarily bad. It depends on purpose. Sometimes this can be unemotional. This isn’t bad either, I don’t buy into enthusiasm, but I don’t think that some emotion cause by a beautiful peace of choir music is wrong either. Nor do I think that those gone before us would disagree, take for example a better man than I’ll ever be (though of course I’ll try): 2 Samuel 6:14-15 says this about King David, “And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So, David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.” I don’t think that anyone would condemn David for what he did here, we too shouldn’t be too quick to judge those who use a different style of music, worship, or liturgy just because it may stir feelings. As long as those feelings are not the reason for worship or the object, how can something which the Lord has given us be called bad. The last thing that Pastor Jeske says here is that it is smotheringly doctrinal. Now, this sounds reprehensible, but it does make sense. Even Christ tells the parable of the sower and goes on to explain that the Word of God is sometimes difficult to understand. We should no overpower people with it, but this is what some of our services tend to do, and we certainly don’t want that. Christ says this: “Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. “ Later the Apostle Paul writes: “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.” Let’s take him to mean here that there is certainly a time in the life of a young believer that he or she is not ready for the “meat” of doctrine, and respect this.
Pax Tecum.
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